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# E-Money or Bank? Why Your Provider's Licence Matters, with Phoebe Wallis from Griffin
- URL: https://www.embeddedfinancereview.com/podcasts/e-money-or-bank-why-your-providers-licence-matters-with-phoebe-wallis-from-griffin/
- Published: 2026-10-01T05:45:45.000Z
- Updated: 2026-10-01T07:46:28.000Z
- Description: Phoebe Wallis, Chief Revenue Officer at Griffin, on e-money versus bank licences and the flow of funds document behind most yes or no calls.
- Author: Lars Markull
- Tags: Podcast

"Selling a bank licence puts you somewhere between a venture capitalist with no funds to deploy and a management consultant. And then you are also the bank." That is how Phoebe Wallis, Chief Revenue Officer at Griffin, describes her job.

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Listen now on [Spotify](https://open.spotify.com/episode/5i5UzLHyZRmtk5N65J6xiB?si=72%5FH6218Q2CNJRU1G1grUA&ref=embeddedfinancereview.com), [Apple Podcasts](https://podcasts.apple.com/de/podcast/e-money-or-bank-why-your-providers-licence-matters/id1748335340?i=1000792487416&ref=embeddedfinancereview.com), or [YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqOB8wzxuKI&ref=embeddedfinancereview.com).

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Prefer to read? The full transcript of this episode is available [here](https://www.embeddedfinancereview.com/phoebe-wallis-griffin-transcript/).

Griffin is a UK bank that other companies build financial products on. It applied for its own licence rather than run on an e-money licence, a process that started at the beginning of 2020 and ran into a pandemic and a very different rates environment.

We get into what a fintech or a non-financial brand gives up when an e-money institution sits between it and the bank, the three types of no Phoebe gives, and the one document that decides most of those answers.

Key Takeaways:

- Why an e-money institution and a bank look identical to the end customer, and why custody of funds and a deposit are fundamentally different things
- What you give up with an EMI: no visibility into, and no control over, the bank underneath it
- Why many fintechs enter the market with an EMI and move to a bank once they want control over pricing and risk appetite
- Why Griffin applied for its own licence in early 2020, and why the process took longer than the team expected
- Why Griffin is API first and deliberately has no consumer-facing front end
- Why a non-financial brand needs internal conviction and a business case, and where a programme manager comes in
- The three types of no, and why the flow of funds document matters more than the pitch
- Why business banking is still underserved compared to consumer, and where wealth is heading
- What to check before you approach a bank: risk appetite, eligibility criteria, pricing and sandbox